From Jet Engine Mechanic to AWS Technical Curriculum Developer with Jason Smith | Ep027

In this episode of Career Downloads, Manuel Martinez interviews Jason Smith, who shares his remarkable journey from a 20-year career as an Air Force jet engine mechanic to becoming a Technical Curriculum Developer at AWS Training and Certification.

Jason discusses growing up in a small Ohio town, his initial career working for a sewer rehabilitation company, and the moment that sparked his interest in joining the Air Force. Throughout his military career, Jason gained valuable skills in leadership, communication, and training that would later prove instrumental in his tech transition.

Using the military’s SkillsBridge program, Jason secured an apprenticeship with AWS despite having zero prior knowledge of cloud computing. He candidly shares his struggle with imposter syndrome, certification challenges, and how he overcame them through persistence and collaborative learning.

Key topics covered:

• Jason’s 20-year military career progression and the skills he developed
• How military training and instructor experience translated to curriculum development
• Navigating the transition from military to civilian tech career
• Overcoming imposter syndrome when entering an unfamiliar field
• The value of “getting comfortable being uncomfortable” in career growth
• Why asking “dumb questions” can accelerate learning and professional development

Whether you’re a veteran looking to transition to civilian work, considering a major career pivot, or simply interested in tech career paths, Jason’s story offers valuable insights and practical advice for navigating significant professional changes.

#CareerDownloads #VeteranSuccess #TechCareers #AWSCertification #CloudComputing #CareerTransition

Manuel: Welcome, everyone. My name is Manuel Martinez, and this is another episode of Career Downloads, where each episode I basically hit the refresh button, bring on a different guest to learn more about their career and really try to uncover any actionable advice and tips that they’ve used as they’ve managed their career so that you can go ahead and use and implement as you’re managing your own career. So for today’s episode, I have with me Jason Smith. And I met Jason at my current place of employment at AWS, we happen to be working a conference together, kind of started, you know, just getting to know each other and learn a little bit more. And, I felt that he had a very interesting career path where he kind of, you know, fell into technology. And, you know, I’m excited to kind of dig a little bit more into that and have him share, you know, his trajectory and ultimately what landed him into the role that he’s in now. So with that, I’ll introduce Jason Smith.

Jason: Thanks, Manny.

Manuel: Appreciate you coming on and taking the time to really kind of share your story and your experiences to, you know, hopefully, you know, inspire or be able to help others along the way.

Jason: Yeah, glad to be here. I actually feel a little honored that you invited me to do this. So yeah, I appreciate it.

Manuel: So kind of what I’ve been doing with the guests is if you just kind of briefly tell me what your current role is, and just a brief summary of kind of what your roles and responsibilities are, and then we’ll kind of take it from there.

Jason: Yeah, so currently, I work with AWS Training and Certification. So my role is a Technical Curriculum Developer. And I work primarily on instructor led training. So what that means is any of the courses that you’ve, so there’s, there’s, there’s going to be some courses on like Skill Builder, if you’ve heard of that, AWS Training and Certification has a platform called Skill Builder, and they deliver. So now they deliver digital training. So I believe like AWS JAMs are held on there where you can, it’s kind of a simulation to you try to solve a challenge, you know, that we could do hands on keyboard. They also offer like digital instructor led training. And, beside that, they offer instructor training. So that some of that is virtual. And then some of that could be like hosted on site where a trainer comes to your, you know, place from employment, if you know, large corporation wants to deliver training, but it’s all focused around getting, getting learners comfortable with the cloud services that we offer. So some of the trainings I’ve worked on, uh, have been primarily around machine learning. So develop curriculum for my first class I worked on was, um, it, it actually got shelved. So you wouldn’t, you wouldn’t even hear about it. So it, there was a shift in priority, uh, with, with the training I was working on at the time. And then, so I guess my first course would be Amazon SageMaker Studio for Data Scientists. So that teaches learners primarily focused towards data scientists, uh, to use Amazon SageMaker, you know, for kind of from start to finish through, through the whole machine learning process, even from formulating a business problem through all the way through processing the data and everything you can do with Amazon SageMaker as a service. Uh, so, and that course went through a development cycle and then it gets, you know, it’s, it’s packaged and ready for trainers to deliver to, to learners. Uh, so I, I’m behind the scenes working with, uh, other developers, sometimes instructional designers, uh, sometimes learning experience designers, working with the subject matter experts. Like we worked with the, a few, uh, uh, a few, uh, like solutions architects, senior solutions architects, uh, to get one, you know, like real world scenarios, make sure we’re, we’re offering like, Hey, this is how people are using the technology. Uh, so work with, with those as well as like globally delivery instructors, all to create, you know, a well, a well packaged and, and, and high quality, uh, training for our, for our learners. So yeah, that’s kind of my role right now. And right, right now, uh, I’ve worked on several courses for instructor led training, but actually now I’m working on a, uh, a cloud ops, uh, role-based training and that’s a digital offering. So I’ve been primarily instuctor led training, but also work in the digital space as well. So.

Manuel: No, and that’s, that’s pretty cool. And when we first kind of talked and you kind of told me what the role was, and I think the interesting part is, and, you know, we’re going to dig into that now is kind of how you ended up in that role, you know, especially with your, your experience and your background. So with that, um, if you kind of, now we’ll kind of take a step back and tell me kind of where you grew up and then eventually kind of what got you interested in the technology, whether it was like early in life later on, and then we’ll kind of, you know, follow your career trajectory to where you’re at now.

Jason: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So I’m from a, I’m from a really small town, uh, in, Ohio. So, it’s Camden, Ohio. So that’s where I spent, uh, so I give it…not to get too personal, but so I’m from a divorced family, you know, statistically, a lot of us are right. Uh, so there was, I either lived in Westerville, Ohio, like I lived in Westerville, Ohio, which is right above Columbus, Ohio, like, like Northeast, uh, just a few miles outside of, uh, Westerville, Ohio. Outside of Columbus, Ohio. Sorry. And I spent, uh, like kindergarten through sixth grade there. And then sixth grade through the time I came in the air force in Camden, Ohio, which is a village. So I think the population was probably around 800 at the time when I went through sixth grade through, uh, graduated high school there. Uh, and then, so that’s, that’s where I’m from. So, and if you’re all right, the claim to fame, like the, maybe the closest thing around there, I don’t know if you remember Ben Roethlisberger. Okay. So Oxford, Ohio, my grandparents lived there and that’s where Miami of Ohio is. And Ben Roethlisberger went, he was the quarterback there. So that’s kind of a claim to fame for, for Miami of Ohio. But yeah, so like growing up, uh, I wouldn’t say I ever really had an interest in technology other than like when I got a Nintendo, you know, I was about the extent.

Manuel: So video games is primarily like your exposure to it.

Jason: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was probably my exposure, but I was more of like outside riding my bike. And like, as soon as I could get my like driver’s license and a car, I got a car, like I was just kind of doing things all the time. But, uh, I guess it’ll be fast forward to like after high school, I went to, I went to a, uh, like a small bachelor’s college actually for a few years. And then, uh, uh, and then I got distracted with the, with the girl and got married and started having kids. Uh, so started working in a, uh, so I’ve had a, I’ve had a kind of a wide range of jobs. So I actually worked for a sewer rehabilitation company before I came in the air force. So anywhere from, and you could make the joke, it’s a crappy job, but anyway, uh, but, uh, so I worked for them like two, two and a half, three years before I came in the air force. Um, like they like cleaning, cleaning old lines, repairing, testing, testing new lines. So we did the kind of a wide range of everything. So one, one thing that kind of, and I tell that because one day on a job at, uh, if you’re familiar with, uh, Sharondale, it’s right outside Cincinnati, the GE. So GE, I’m sure everybody’s, so we, we had a job where we were working on sewer line at the GE plant, like where they’re doing jet engines. And so like growing up, my dad worked on, uh, he was a jet engine mechanic, but he was not, not a jet engine mechanic. He was an airframe mechanic. So he just worked on the airframe, not the engine itself. And I kind of saw that kind of growing up and then, uh, working in my crappy job and seeing this jet engine get towed past us as we’re like cleaning the sewer line. I thought it kind of made me evaluate, like, what am I doing? I think, uh, there might be more than, and I think I was like 22 at the time. There might be a little bit more than this sewer job. So.

Manuel: But I’m assuming at the time, right? I mean, you took the job, like you said, you’re, you’re starting to have kids. So it’s like, you need to find something that pays well, or just be able to cover the bills, you know, and, and all your responsibilities. But that experience, and it sounds like that exposure of, you know, having your dad work on airplanes and, you know, kind of seeing that. And, you know, I, I’ve talked to a bunch of different people and there’s sometimes where like, there’s just something that calls to you. Right. So like seeing this jet engine, your dad had exposure to this. I’m sure that’s what kind of led you that path.

Jason: Yeah. Yeah. So that’s what got me interested in, uh, in, in my career field as a, as in the Air Force. And even like the, so that got me thinking about it. And then one of the individuals I worked with, he was actually my, uh, I guess my cousin in law at the, at the time we worked together, like drove back and forth to work together. And he, uh, he was prior, prior army and he was trying to so on the way home, he wanted me to stop by an Air Force recruiter one day because he wanted to try to enlist, but they weren’t taking a prior military at the time. So he started focusing on me and I’m like, well, I had no interest in joining the Air Force, you know? So then I like, okay, I’ll take it like a practice ASVAB and see where, see where that leads. And I scored high on that. I went home and talked to my, my wife about it and just started kicking around the idea and then ask if it was, if there’s potential, like, what would it, what would the job look like for a jet engine mechanic in the Air Force? Like, what would that look like? So started having those conversations and like fast forward, I decided to enlist, but my master plan, I’ll fast forward and it kind of jumped the shark a little bit. So I 20 year retired Air Force vet. So my master plan coming in the Air Force, uh, was to, there’s a thing called palace chase. Like you can, you can get out. So if you sign up for active duty, I signed up for six years and my master plan was to do palace chase at three years, which allows you to do three years of active duty and then you could go guard. So like you could go back to your home state and be part of the Air Force guard and then get a job. So my master plan was to go work at GE after three years, get my A&P. And then fast forward 20 years later, retired after none of that happened. Like I had a plan per se.

Manuel: But that’s good. I mean, at least you kind of went into it with a plan, right? Cause it just, everybody’s different. And I’ve had people that I’ve talked to different experiences going in the military. Some people go in and just, you know, young and I’ll figure it out when I get there. Other people have at least somewhat of a plan. Now it sounds like it didn’t work out, but did that having that plan kind of influence what you ended up doing obviously to start and then kind of did that play a part as you kind of navigated those 20 years in the military?

Jason: Yeah. I mean the plan, it did because, so the plan was I would, I would only sign up if I could get that job, like to be a jet engine mechanic. Uh, so that part kind of guided the, uh, my career progression and decisions. And then from there it was, uh, I mean, if I’m being frank, I wasn’t sold on the Air Force really until I don’t know, maybe about my third enlistment. Cause at like at each re-enlistment point, like I was, if you would ask me, I like, I was getting out, but then something, something would keep me in like it different. I ended up re-enlisting, uh, for various decisions at the time, you know, it just ended up being like when you get down to just really thinking through and like looking at all the options, it ended up, I felt like being the best solution. Uh, and then, but which allowed me to continue to progress in my career as a, as a jet engine mechanic and then kind of go through the different roles that I had.

Manuel: So as you’re, you know, especially with your original plan, right? Like, Hey, I’m going to go in and then eventually go and work for GE at that time. Were you also kind of scouting or doing like your research on like GE positions, like to try and find out like, okay, what do I have to know to eventually kind of move into that type of role? Like how many openings do they have? Is, was there any kind of, of that thought process or is it just, I’m going to learn the skills and then eventually I’ll be marketable enough to go in and do that type of role.

Jason: So what I think kind of helped me make the decision to stay in was I felt like, cause I wanted to come in and get that, uh, my airframe and power plant, uh, which when you’re working, so in, in the engine career field, like when you’re working on jet engine mechanics, there’s a few things you can do. Uh, I worked what they would call back shop. So it’s an uninstalled engine. So I worked just on the engine, uh, with, with it outside of the aircraft, or you could work on the flight line where you’re working on the engine when it’s in the aircraft. And, you know, you’re mainly supporting like the flight line activities. Um, but working on just the jet engine while it’s uninstalled, there are certain requirements you have to meet to get your airframe and power plant. So I would meet some of those requirements, uh, to get, uh, like the, the power plant certification. And I didn’t feel like I would be as marketable because I was not getting that airframe experience. So I couldn’t meet those requirements to even get that certification. Uh, so I felt like that kind of helped guide my career path and made me focus more on kind of doing the best job I could in, in the current role I was in. But also after about a year in the Air Force, I started out working on Pratt and Whitney, uh, F-100, like 220 and 229 engines, which, which were in the F-15 and F-16 aircraft here at Nellis Air Force base. But then after about a year, I got the opportunity to work on the F-22 engine, which is, it’s a Pratt and Whitney F-119. Uh, and that was a new program, which kind of, and being on a new program, they wanted to control the experience level. So I, I was, I had a freeze code put on me to one, you know, stay at Nellis to kind of keep gaining that experience and building on an experience so they could keep that knowledge and experience within the F-19 career field. So if I go, but going back to your, your question about GE, I started to see, you know, what if I didn’t have my airframe and power plant? I wasn’t as marketable. Uh, and then a lot of the, uh, roles that I was seeing were more like engineer type roles. And at that point in time, I was not, uh, I was not qualified for that. So it kind of shifted me to, and it was exciting being on the, the one F-19, uh, program as well. So that I was kind of invigorated to, to learn that engine.

Manuel: So then as you’re kind of going within the military and the reason I ask is you spent 20 years there. So, and you have kind of experience on the private sector as well, but as you’re going through and you mentioned, you know, experience and these different projects. So how are you kind of navigating kind of that process? Like I only know private sector, right? So I was never in the military, but me, it’s like, you know, I get to a certain point and like, I want to move, you know, I’m free to do that. But like in the military, you’re signing up for a position. So I’m assuming it’s not as easy to just be like, Oh, there’s an opening. I’m going to go jump ship. Or is it that way?

Jason: No, no. So it’s, it’s really not that easy. Uh, they, there’s a, there’s, there’s certain bases that come out, like there’s a listing, uh, like returning from overseas listing and there’s certain bases that have openings and there’s, there’s stateside openings. Uh, but when you’re, depending on your, your rank, your skill level, uh, like time on station, like how long you’ve been in a certain place, those all factor into, to where you could even apply for a position. If you saw the opening for stateside or overseas, like you can put your name on it and we refer to as a dream sheet. Uh, and you can update like whatever base you, you want to go to, but there’s really other than like specific, uh, uh, openings where they’re looking for like certain criteria and you meet that criteria, you have a chance to apply for those. And that candidate pool is, is kind of minimized and you have a better chance if you’re, if you made those qualifications, but there’s really no, like the longer you’re on station, like the more vulnerable or better opportunity you have to PCS when it’s Permanent Change of Station. Uh, but I mentioned that I had a freeze code put on me, which that kept me at Nellis. So for, it was originally for three years and then it got renewed for another three years. So I was, didn’t have much opportunity to, to move at all other than, uh, at the time they were, uh, they were standing up like Tyndall Air Force Base with F-22s and, uh, Alaska. Uh, so Tyndall’s in Florida and then Alaska, uh, Elmendorf is the base they had for F-22s. So there with my experience, uh, I could, I could apply for those positions, even with the freeze code, they would allow me because I’m still staying within that, uh, that, that airframe and, and it kind of preserves the knowledge of people. And, but I was a staff sergeant at the time. So E-5 and the one position that I was well qualified for and knew the right people, there was one little stipulation that got me. So there’s, there’s different levels. Like when you come in, there’s like the, you have a one level, like when you come in the Air Force, depending on your grade or a three level, which is your, your, uh, you’re, you know, it’s typically after you graduate tech school, you’re a three level. And in five levels, you know, journeyman, uh, which after you complete a certain period of time in, in the, in the job, and you also meet some certain benchmarks, you can be a journeyman and you take a test to show, show that you have the knowledge to, to be a journeyman. Uh, and then you can, you can have a seven level, which is craftsman. And you go through some, depending on the career field, some, you have to go through additional schooling for that, still take a test, uh, and then meet certain, you know, tasks. Uh, but as a staff sergeant, you can have a seven level, but you can’t, uh, be a seven level in the career field until you put the next rank on, which is E-6. So that eliminated me right, right off the bat. So that kept me at Nellis. Uh, but, so there’s some things you have to navigate as far as progression in the, at least in my experience there with the Air Force.

Manuel: And now as you’re kind of going through, right. So, I mean, there’s those, those guardrails, but I’m assuming that at some point, you know, kind of now, as you’re looking back apart from the jet engine mechanic skillset that you’re building up, you’re also got to be building up other skillsets that eventually would help you like later on down the line. So as you’re kind of starting to go through those, is there like an interview process? Like, are those things that you’re kind of working on in the military? I’m just, I’m curious what kind of skills you pick up in the military that you feel can transition you into like private sector.

Jason: I feel like skills you pick up even along the way at that point, um, what are, are ones like soft skills and how to communicate. So there’s certain, so like for it to, to go to E-5, you have to go through an airman leadership school to be able to put that rank on. And that, you know, part of that training is, is, is, you know, how to, how to be an effective leader, how to, how to do public speaking. Like you give several speeches, like some of them persuasive, impromptu, uh, so I think those kinds of skills are helpful, you know, as you, as you transition to the civilian sector, but also, you know, communication, counseling, uh, interpersonal skills, like all of that was part of that, that training through, through airman leadership school. Uh, and it was at the time, I believe it was a six week, uh, training that you just went through, you know, each week, something, something different. And, but then as you progress in the ranks, there’s also a non-commissioned officer academy. So when you go from, it’s a requirement to, to put on like E-7, which is a master sergeant in the Air Force, but when you’re some, some staff sergeants, I think if you have a line number for the E-6 rank, you could, uh, you could attend that. And that just kind of built, that’s like the next level. Like if the airman leadership school was the high school level, then the NCO academy would be the collegiate level of, of those kinds of skills, or just kind of amplifies everything you build upon what you learned. And it shows you how to be that, you know, like transformational leader and get more into, and move away from the tactical to strategic type of, uh, uh, planning and, and those type of, uh, skills

Manuel: You mentioned like airman school and some of the other schools, I’m assuming you’re also picking up the, a skill or you’re probably refining it, right. Is how to study how to learn. Cause you mentioned like these six week courses that you’re going to have to go through. The other thing that I think is like, there’s a parallel between the military and tech is acronyms, right? Like,

Jason: Oh yes.

Manuel: The military, just like tech, like certain acronyms, like, you know, solutions architect, an SA, a TAM, a TA, you know, a technical account manager. So there’s a lot of that, that there’s correlated. So how often are you going through those types of courses where you’re having to like learn like book skill or, you know, I’m going to say classroom skills that eventually are supposed to translate into like hands-on type of, uh, you know, you know, practical skills.

Jason: Well, so at each benchmark, like for the, uh, I guess even, yeah, if it’s, if you’re talking about rank or if you’re talking about progressing in your skill level, there, there was an educational component to tie to that each time. So there were CDCs, Career Development Courses, which depending on, and you would have volumes, uh, excuse me. Um, um, so for, to go from that three level airman to a five level, you had to complete five volumes, you know, I don’t know how many pages, but they’re about that thick each. And you had to, you could, you could take, uh, like unit tests for each volume to make sure you understood the knowledge. And then you, you take a, uh, a test at the end, which comprises like the knowledge from, from everything. I think it was a hundred questions on each. And then same thing with seven level, uh, you would do hands-on type tasks, uh, that you would have signed off and have someone validate that you could perform that skill. Uh, so there’s continuous learning, even with the hands-on and seven level, you would have to, so my, I had to go through a seven level school. So you had a, that component as well as the CDCs and the Career Development Course volumes. And there was only two for those for the, for the craftsmen. And you would test again to show you had the knowledge to, uh, to be at that skill level. But then also it’s continuous learning. If you want to progress, uh, it’s a little bit different now, but when I came in, um, for E5 through E7, you would test for promotion. And then from there, uh, you would test for part of it then, but a board like for E8, E9, a board would be involved to help make the decision. They would review your records. Uh, but so fast and go back to the E5 through E7, you would take a, like an Air Force type, type knowledge test, uh, to see how well, you know, Air Force history and culture and things like that. But then you would also test on your job, uh, as well. And then those scores combined with, uh, like your performance rating, how long you’ve been time and grade that would help determine whether you make that next, uh, rank and get promoted. So there was continuous. There’s, it was really what you make of it. You’re, you’re kind of in control. So if you didn’t study, then you’re not really going to progress, but if you want to progress and kind of put the, put the effort in, then you can kind of control your own destiny there.

Manuel: So then I’ll let you kind of go through. And so now you’ve, it sounds like you’re picking up these different skills, both for your current role. Like you’re, you’re obviously having to progress within that, that career field. Like obviously there’s stipulations on, you know, you can’t just bounce around, you know, at ad hoc, but kind of, so through that career path within the military. So, I mean, I’ll let you summarize it. I, we don’t have to go through each, each step and each role, but kind of, so what, what do you feel along that trajectory is, is something that kind of played a part in you kind of moving through and eventually saying, okay, I’m going to do the full 20 years now. And then eventually decide I’m going to get out and, you know, you know, try and pursue other avenues.

Jason: Yeah. Good question. So I think, uh, deciding to kind of keep me going through were the opportunities to, uh, take other roles. So one of the key things, and it kind of led to this, the role that I’m in now is, uh, I had a chance to, to be, uh, a trainer in the Air Force. So I went through there’s, they call it basic instructor course. So again, continuous development and training to learn how to, it was, it was kind of like that Amber leadership school on steroids where you’re, you’re giving speeches. Like you start out with impromptu and you kind of progress to like a, like a 10 minute speech on a certain topic or whatever, all the way to your, you’re doing, uh, like a 45 minute to an hour presentation, uh, on something where you’re, you’re teaching someone a certain task and, and, and evaluating that to make sure they understood it. So that was pretty, pretty intensive as far as that training piece, but, uh, getting those skills and part of that learned instructional design and that role learned how to develop curriculum and, and, and, uh, communicate with learners and how to develop a lesson plan and deliver that lesson plan and kind of make it your own, which all translates now into, to what I’m doing right now. Uh, but it was the opportunity, uh, to take those different roles. So from there, I went to, uh, Shaw Air Force Base, which is in South Carolina and I learned a completely different engine. And then I felt like I, I kind of mastered that pretty quickly and which led me into a quality assurance role, which kind of invigorated me more. And I got to deploy in that role, uh, to, uh, while I was in Kuwait, but, uh, we supported the, uh, the exit of Iraq. So that was our mission there, but I got to go as quality assurance was, which is by far one of the best ways to deploy one of the best roles to be in if you’re, if you’re ever deploy. Uh, but, uh, and then from there I was able to, uh, to come back and, and then, uh, we ended up PCSing and went into a different role. So it was never like I was a jet engine mechanic and I was just turning wrenches for my full career. So the opportunity to kind of learn new things, because I really enjoy learning a new task. If something interests me even a little bit, I can kind of dive into it and get excited about learning it. So those opportunities to take new roles and learn like just kind of the ins and outs of all of it, uh, kept me interested in progressing and keeping going in the, in the Air Force.

Manuel: And that’s what kind of ended up keeping you.

Jason: Yeah, that’s what pushed me. I feel like in keeping, keeping, keeping me in and interested for 20 years. And then for transitioning, uh, I, I kind of felt that, so after, after 20 years, you’re eligible for retirement. So anybody that might listen to this, that is in the Air Force or military after 20 years, you’re, you’re working for 50% of your pay. So for that kind of made the decision easy for me. I felt like there was only so far I could go in the Air Force. Uh, and I wanted to kind of venture out and try something new. And I felt like, yeah, at the 20 year mark, you’re eligible for 50% of retirement. So I could go on and have another career and not be working for half the pay basically. So that, I mean, not that money is a driving factor in everything, but I felt like it was just, you know, kind of, I had my time and it was time to try something different. Yeah.

Manuel: Especially if you’ve been doing, you know, any number of different roles within, you know, the military, right? So it sounds like each time you’re kind of reenlisting or getting different opportunities. So the, I’m going to say the, the confidence to go and try something new, right? Cause a lot of times if people, you know, like if you’re stuck in the same role, like if you would have just been doing just engine mechanic, just turning wrenches the whole time, I think it might, might’ve made it a little bit more difficult to say, Hey, I’m going to go try something different where for the past 20, 15 years, I’ve only been doing this one thing.

Jason: Yeah.

Manuel: You have this opportunity now to kind of go through, you retire, you, you do the, you crunch the numbers and what?

Jason: I like how you put that in a more political way.

Manuel: You crunch the numbers, like you, you figure out, I mean, cause you know, you mentioned it, right? You’ve got a family, you’ve got things to look in after and you have to determine like, is it, can I go try something else and still be able to meet my obligations, right? And do what I need to do. So what was that transition like for you? Like I’ve, I’ve heard different stories where sometimes it’s easy and, you know, you kind of can start looking before you get out, as you get out, sometimes there’s a break in between. So like, what, what was that like for you?

Jason: So that was actually a really good experience. Uh, and something I, I, I could really praise the Air Force for, and I think all branches do it, but you could, there’s a, there’s a, uh, a program called SkillsBridge Opportunity. So it allows you your last 180 days, uh, of active duty. You can spend that like up to 180 days. You can, you can either do like a, an approved apprenticeship or you can go, uh, work with, uh, work with a company, like an internship. Um, so, and that’s while you’re still receiving active duty pay. So it’s really all to help veterans kind of succeed in exiting the military and, you know, not have, uh, veterans struggle when they, when they transition back to civilian, cause it’s, I mean, it’s quite a different, uh, culture that come back to the civilian sector. So it’s, it’s really a great program. So that, uh, that having that opportunity allowed me to start looking, you know, six, eight, 10 months out. I found out about an apprenticeship opportunity, uh, with AWS actually. Uh, and I knew about the SkillsBridge and I, I found out about the SkillsBridge opportunity, maybe about three to four years before my retirement. And once I heard about it, I thought you’d have to be a fool not to take advantage of that, you know, and you could have six months to kind of prove yourself with a company. And if it’s an internship, you know, you’re being paid by the Air Force and they’re not really taking the risk and that’s kind of free labor for them. And you have a chance to approve, prove yourself and work your way into the company. That’s kind of the way I saw it. I thought it’d be a great opportunity. Uh, but the apprenticeship was a little bit different. It was an opportunity to, uh, actually be paid while you’re learning through, through AWS, uh, Amazon.

Manuel: So did you get to kind of double dip then at that point?

Jason: If you were on terminal leave, uh, so what’s terminally, like if you have a leave balance, let’s say you, you get 30 days a year and you can kind of roll that over if you don’t use it up to a certain amount, I think it was 120 days at the time. So if you were, let’s say if, so I got out in May, that was my retirement date. If I had, you know, 60 days saved up, I could two months back from that, I could start double dipping if I wanted, uh, which I had some leave saved up. So I started like a month early. Uh, so that, that was a great opportunity to one, it helps you transition fairly smooth. Uh, but during that apprenticeship, um, I don’t know, maybe I should back up finding out, finding out about the apprenticeship.

Manuel: The two questions I have is one, how did you find out about the apprenticeship? And then what is it that really called your attention towards like AWS, especially, you know, I don’t know what kind of exposure you’ve had to it within the military, but something, you know, something called your attention and said, Hey, I want to do this. And then, you know, you had to have found out about it somehow. That SkillsBridge opportunity. That’s, uh, something that helps veterans transition. And there’s actually a role on most bases, uh, transition assistance coordinator. I think it is the, I don’t know if they call it TAC, but I’m sure there’s an acronym for it. Uh, but my wife at the time was in that role and she let me know about some of the programs that were coming up. And, uh, she, she let me know about this. It was kind of a short notice on, on that one. I had to have my, uh, like resume updated and things like that within like a week was a deadline when I found out about that, but she she heard about it just in her position. And then I, I thought, I thought about it and I had no idea what the, like, I thought the cloud was, that’s where I stored my iTunes. That’s pretty much, that’s what cloud computing was. That’s where, that’s where the money’s at, you know, like iTunes charging extra for storage. So that’s, that was the extent of my knowledge. And I thought this is completely outside of my comfort zone. I have 180 days, you know, to kind of prove myself, I feel like, and, you know, if, if I already get accepted and that was kind of my mindset when I first saw it, I thought, okay, it’s outside of my comfort zone. I don’t know if I even have an interest in it really, but worst case scenario, I could go back, lean on my experience in the Air Force if it didn’t work out. But I thought, why not take a risk and see what this is about? And the more I dug into it, to be honest, I didn’t, I had no intention of working for Amazon, no intention of working for AWS. And I’d heard people like Amazon was a gold standard, you know, if you could get on there, like whatever, you know, that was a huge thing. But I didn’t look at it that way, honestly, but it wasn’t really until I was preparing for the interview. And I was looking, looking through the leadership principles to kind of prepare. I think when I came out of the Air Force, I didn’t really want, I didn’t want a, just a, I want to fill a job. I was looking for like, what’s my next career, you know, I thought this could be potentially it, or I could just go back and do what I did previously. But as I went down the leadership principles, I’m like, oh, that kind of aligns with, you know, really my Air Force experience, and what the culture I’ve been in for the last 20 years, and kind of like my own personal values, I thought, it just kind of kept checking the boxes off. I thought, if this company really, like puts these into practice, you know, I think this might be a culture that I want to, to join. So preparing for that, and then in the apprenticeship, as I started learning about the cloud, the more I learned, like, the more fascinated I was by it. Yeah.

Manuel: That interview, when you went to go through an interview, so you mentioned you had a week for, you know, to get the resume, was it, how much time did you have after that to kind of really prepare for the interview? You know, if you have a week, I’ve got to get this prepped, and, you know, be able to really get through the first screening, right, is basically say, okay, yeah, this is somebody we could take on as the apprenticeship. So obviously, they saw skills there, or, you know, something that said, hey, this is a person that’s worth at least bringing on and going through the interview process. How much time did you have from when they notified you, or did you just, at the same time, or right after you got, you know, submitted your resume, did you, like, decide, all right, let me start figuring out what the interview process is like?

Jason: I mean, I don’t want to exaggerate, but I feel like the whole process was like two weeks, because it was short notice, like I said, finding out about the opportunity, and what it was, well, I say I had to kind of tailor my resume and update my resume. There was an apprenticeship company that was managing the apprentices, so that wasn’t AWS. So you had to get past the screening for them to see if you’re even a right fit to, like, be eligible for this apprenticeship, see if you even met the criteria that AWS was looking for, before you even got to the AWS interview. So tailored my resume, and then had, like, a phone screen with them, and then a next interview with them, and then found that I made that, like, that was all within, like, a week. And then I had, I don’t feel like it was a full another week. And one thing, so I started prepping for the leadership principles, and once they started, they said, like, hey, okay, you make the cut, now here’s the next steps, which was the AWS interview, which is, if you haven’t had that experience, that’s a pretty intense process to where you really need to prepare for, I mean, it’s not, not, not like a trial by fire or anything like that, but it’s, it’s pretty intensive interview. It was, it was about, I don’t know, like five hours, the total interview for that. But like I said, it was a really condensed version, and I had, I could lean back on some of my time in the Air Force as an instructor, and the Airman Leadership School, and the NCO Academy to prep for, because I found that on a Friday, that there was a presentation component of that interview that I was going to be taking on Monday. Like, so I had to, and they wanted, they wanted you to present something where you’re, you’re teaching a topic that you were confident in to show that you had the presentation skills, you could learn, you know, you could help somebody learn a new skill. So, yeah, so I had to crash course, other than the leadership principles I prepared for, do that presentation, which I feel like all those experiences prior to that helped me prepare for that.

Manuel: And you probably don’t have the direct experience, but was that, that screener, that, the one that was managing the, the apprenticeship, it almost sounds like it was kind of like, almost like a, a recruiter, you know, like our headhunter type situation, right? I don’t know if you’ve ever had to deal with something like that. And I kind of want to get a better understanding. So I’ve dealt with recruiters, and they’re the ones that usually they funnel in these jobs, and you know, they’re, they’re screening, right? Exactly what, what you kind of mentioned. But apart from screening you, are they also helping prepare you to get through the, the AWS, you know, interview process? Or is it really just, hey, you screened, you passed, and they just kind of set you on your way?

Jason: No, I would say they, they did help, kind of set us up for success. And one of the key things, I mean, they didn’t, they didn’t go, they gave us an overall idea of what the interviews would look like. And I think where they really helped us was developing the STAR format, you know, situation, task, action. And my mind just went blank.

Manuel: Result.

Jason: Result. Thank you. That’s the most important part. And I, I, what was the result of me forgetting that? Yeah, so they helped us start to formulate the responses in the STAR format. And I think that was key. So I, so I applied that STAR format, to all of the leadership principles. And I, and I came up with a couple examples for each LP. And, you know, wrote them down, like preparing, I took that, like I put, I just, I just gave it 100% effort. And I went through, at the time, I think there were four, 12 or 14 leadership principles when I was preparing for it. And come up with two to three stories for each LP and put it in that STAR format and really, really check. It wasn’t something I was going to refer back to, like during the, the, the interview process, but putting those down on paper, having it in this situation, like that response and trying to have a crisp response in mind, I felt like then helped me when I was in an interview. Like I wasn’t looking at my notes, like reading off a script, but just that preparation helped me be in the right mindset and know and feel prepared going into the interview, so.

Manuel: When you mentioned, so all you did was write it down. Did you actually verbalize those to yourself? Like, Hey, if they asked me, like you would kind of tell the story or was it enough for you to just have it written down and bring it to the forefront and the exercise of actually writing out, you know, that, that story in the STAR format, that was enough. And the reason I ask is I’ve, everybody has a different experience and some people that’s, that’s good enough. Um, but I know that sometimes I’ve had a lot of people that will go through and suggest it is you should actually go through. And I don’t know that if you have two or three for each LP, right. And then there’s like 12 or 14 of those, like to verbalize all of those, but at least a couple of them so that you get through the practice or the experience of going through it. But I mean, if you’re doing a lot of presenting, maybe you don’t have to go through that process, but I just know sometimes like kind of like going through a mock interview by yourself.

Jason: Oh yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, maybe it was some of the presentation experience I’ve had in the past, which man, I don’t know. I’d have to talk to the interviewer and see what his actual feedback was. That would be nice to hear. But I, I felt like it was enough for me to, to write it down. But I did, I mean, I went through that list multiple times and then I even, it’s not like I just, you know, one sitting went through everything and had two or three stories. I thought about that for like a couple of days where I went through and then, uh, just like daily, I was thinking about, okay, like maybe this is a better example of the story. Cause if you look at the leadership principles, some of them can start, kind of start to overlap and you could easily have the same story for each, you know, for multiple LPs. Uh, so like going back through that list, kind of revisiting and writing, writing it down and like referring to a different story that I felt like that, that helped me, uh, not, not need to say it out loud and do that. But in like presentations previously, I would, I would time speeches and I would, I would rehears those, record them, which that’s painful to listen back to.

Manuel: Got it. So you’ve, so you’ve had that experience or you’ve done it. You didn’t have to do it at that point, but you had the experience of going through and like, okay, I’m preparing something. I’m going to deliver it. Obviously you’re recording or watching yourself, but even if you don’t record it or watch yourself, like even just that practice of like, Hey, here’s how I tell the story or present something. Okay.

Jason: Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Manuel: And so now you go through and now you’re, you’re interviewing. So do you think that, and I’ll get your experience. You talked about it. It is a long interview, right? It’s, it’s like a four or five hour day depending. Do you think it helped you that it was such a condensed timeline that you didn’t have time to kind of overthink it? Cause in certain situations, I know I’ve had both experiences, right? Where I’ve had, where the timeline is so fast that you just, you prepare, you get everything ready and you just go and you don’t have time to kind of sit and reflect. And I’ve had other times where like, there’s a long time in between. So you kind of like overthink it sometimes. So I’m just curious.

Jason: Reflecting back on it now at the time, I wish I would have had more time, but, uh, I, it didn’t really, like you said, it didn’t really give me time to overthink. And I’ve been through, uh, some informal, uh, that’s an Amazon internal kind of thing. I’ve been through some internal loops where they’ve been, uh, separated by days, sometimes weeks. And looking back, I prefer that kind of five hour experience where it’s just in like, Hey, let’s do this. Let’s get it over with. And just to kind of knock it out. And you’re drained by the end of that. I feel like at least I was, uh, but that, but that was a much better experience kind of gets it out of the way. Let’s you. Cause I found when you break it up over days and weeks, I was a little more anxious and kind of nervous going into the other interviews, like overthinking what, what I just went through and like, Oh, I wonder what they thought about this, you know? Yeah.

Manuel: So now you’re going through and I’m assuming at that point, after you’ve done your interview, they tell you that you’ve been accepted for this apprenticeship, right? And what was, what was it like now doing that transition or at least going through that process of now? All right, well, I did my research and now figuring out what I’m going to do in this role on this cloud that is, it’s new to you, right? But it sounds like you don’t shy away from a challenge and, you know, you’re constantly learning. So I, I don’t think it was, I don’t want to speak for you, but you didn’t have the challenge of, am I going to be able to learn this? Right.

Jason: I did actually. Uh, because so the apprenticeship opportunity, uh, I wouldn’t say it was a well established program at the time. I think at the time we were the second or third cohort that came through that. And it, and it, we were, uh, one of the cohorts that was trying a different format for the training. So everything was condensed, uh, and to meet the, so I came through the apprenticeship to be a solutions architect, uh, which is obviously not that I didn’t tell you I was a solutions architect now. So you probably went, what happened? I got kicked to the curb now. Uh, but that, that’s what the apprenticeship for. So to meet the criteria for the solutions architect, they were looking for, uh, you to have the CompTIA, uh, Network+ CompTIA, uh, Linux+, and then they wanted you to have the, you know, the first thing was a cloud AWS Cloud Practitioner. That was the first thing. So that was the first certification that you were going to be required to get. And then the Solutions Architect Associate and then Developer Associate and Sysops Associate. So all of those were benchmarks to completely success, you know, complete the program, excuse me. Uh, and having no experience. And like, like I said, the program was not that established. So it wasn’t a, a well-formed experience I’ll say. Uh, but I did have the benefit of, of sharing the experience with, I think we started out with 18 and then 13 of us finished the complete program. I think it was 13. I did have the, the, uh, that shared experience where we could all like share, you know, cross communicate with each other and say, Hey, this is working for me. This is just working for you. Like to help share resources, which I think that was kind of a blessing. Really. We had, when I say we had to make, meet those certain benchmarks, like we had maybe, I think, uh, a week to two weeks for cloud practitioner where you go from zero to cloud practitioner, you know, two weeks, you take the certification tests and that’s a benchmark to kind of move to the next phase of the cohort. And then that next phase, uh, I believe the next phase, yeah, the next phase was networking. And you mentioned that I probably, you know, I may not have had a doubt that I could learn it. Networking was not clicking for me. And part of it, I feel like was, um, the, the format that we were learning in. And I think the, the trainer that, that, uh, uh, we were working with was expecting, uh, the cohort to come in with a certain level of knowledge. And our knowledge was all over the place. Like me, I had zero. So maybe he was teaching at this level and I was like down here. So I was, I feel like just completely in the dust and I actually failed that that’s one of the certifications I failed on my first attempt because it was just not clicking. I was trying to learn everything I could from him. And some of the things I felt like it was, it was just over my head. Uh, and if you’re familiar with networking or trying to learn to prep for the test, uh, you may have heard of professor Messer. Have you ever heard of him? That professor Messer was a godsend. He, uh, and that, like I said, that was, that was one of the resources I found out about through the cohort. Uh, so I took it upon myself, anything that I, I couldn’t kind of understand from the trainer, I would fill the gaps. And so we typically had like an eight hour day with the trainer and then at night I was professor Messer YouTube and then printing out any kind of resources just kind of going through. Uh, so I once, yeah, that at that point when I failed, I was really questioning like, was this the right, uh, was this the right move for me? Because the cloud practitioner, you know, that’s more of an entry foundational level certification. So I, I passed that and I thought, okay, I’m starting to understand these concepts. And then I get into networking. It’s like, uh, what, like OSI model. What, what do you mean? What are these colors for on the landline? What’s happening? So yeah, that, that took me like TCP and, and learning all these new concepts.

Manuel: And I think you bring up a, a really important point there is, and that’s something that I don’t, I don’t think I took advantage enough or sought out those resources early on in my career, especially when, you know, you’re studying resource, you know, either for certification or even just trying to learn different skills is having a group of people, or at least, at least one or two other people do. Again, I don’t need you to teach me, you know, but being able to bounce ideas off or, Hey, it’s just the knowledge sharing tips of like, Hey, well, I’m not getting this or, you know, well, have you looked at this resource or that resource, especially now, because back in the day, when I was kind of going through, I would say that there were, there were resources, but not to the extent that there are now to where like, you can go on YouTube and say, Hey, networking, like there’s Messer. And there’s probably a ton of other YouTubers that like have gone through and teach the material. And you might just find the one that clicks for, for you, right? Like, Oh, I get what they’re saying now. Um, you know, I remember subnetting, like I know I had done subnetting with networking. I went through it and I would just, I had a method and it would just, it took me forever. And one of the places I worked, we just, we brought it up and I was like, Hey, you know what? I think I’m going to go for, you know, my CCNA again at some point, maybe I’ll study for it because I went and I didn’t pass it. And I was just like, Oh man, it just, I think some of those things where I was just running out of time, like subnetting, like I understood it, but it just took me too long. And there’s a guy I ran into, he’s like, Hey, check out these videos. And they show you how to do it with math. That just, for me, it clicked. I was like, Oh, Oh, that’s so much faster. Like now I can get it. It’s not going to take me forever where I’m drawing out like all these numbers and okay, well, how many IP addresses are in this range? I’m like, well, hold on, let me do this math. And I’ve got this long sheet of paper. So, but that’s something that I’ll say that if people are going through this now, whether you’re in the career or looking to get in is having that group of core head cohorts, or just somebody that you can go through and share ideas with. Cause I do that now. I have a group of people that when we started in our role at AWS, it was just, Hey, I learned this thing. Cause you can’t know everything, but at least have exposure. Hey, I found this thing. Are you guys aware of, Hey, I found this new tool that works for me. Here’s how it works. And it’s up to each person to kind of filter and say, cool. I went through it and it doesn’t work for me or I do something different, but at least exposing each other to different methodologies and tools.

Jason: Yeah. Yeah. That’s something I found really valuable. I mean, there’s something, something about having a shared experience. I mean, one, yeah, you get the resources. And something I’ll say about resources at a point, there were too many, like I had no idea what to look at. So I had to like, just hone in on one, like, okay, this is working for me. Like just block out the noise. But going back to the shared experience, just even at times, like knowing somebody else is struggling or they’re confident in this area and they can help you out. Like that gave me confidence to feel like I could, you know, I could do this, you know, it, they’re, they’re struggling here too. And they’ve had, you know, they were up here on the experience level and I’m down here. It’s like, okay, we’re kind of in this together as supportive or sharing, sharing these resources. If I put the effort in, I’m going to succeed. So from there, like I just, I, I retook the network. I think like maybe it’s 14 days you have to wait. And then I know with this, with the AWS certifications, 14 days, but I retook it and passed that. And then like, I was one of the first ones to get my Linux certification after that. So from there, I just kind of hit the ground running and it, yeah, that was, but that was, that was a point where I felt like, I don’t know if this is the right, right move.

Manuel: And that’s another important thing is just understanding that we all are at different levels, right? Like, and that’s part of the reason, and you and me had kind of talked a little bit offline is just, that’s a reason that I, I do this, right? Is I want to talk to you so that somebody else going through, if you don’t have that cohort now and just say, oh, oh, they’re struggling too. Like we all struggle, right? At some point you can get it. I have no doubt that, you know, even if you failed it a second time, you’ll pass it on a third time. If you’re putting the effort or finding the resources, but just having that shared experience and maybe that shared experience is listening or watching to this and saying, oh, oh, he failed the Network+ the first time. But then, you know, 14 days later, he passed it like, okay, I can do this and understand that.

Jason: Yeah. A big part of that was, I feel like the imposter syndrome, like feeling like I don’t belong here. You know what I mean? Like, I don’t know why I’m in this cohort right now. Cause I, a lot of the people that I was in the cohort with had tech backgrounds in the Air Force or Army, Marines. Uh, so they, a lot, a big part of me felt like I didn’t belong, but that wasn’t something that they were putting off. It was just like internally something that I had to kind of deal with. But then, like I said, this support from the shared experience kind of gave me confidence to keep going.

Manuel: I guess it’s a good thing now. I know that that was for the solutions architect type position. So obviously you go through this cohort, you’re getting all, I’m assuming you passed all of your certifications. You hit all your, your milestones when you needed to. So what was kind of the next step after that?

Jason: Uh, so yeah, so I met the certification benchmarks and then even, I think I mentioned earlier, like the more I found out about the cloud that like the more I kind of wanted to learn and then like the more certifications I took, I want to kind of push myself. So I even pushed myself to get the, uh, the Security Specialty, which wasn’t a requirement for the, for the program. Cause it, uh, that a big part of that was, you know, Air Force culture and there’s, there’s regulations, instructions you have to follow, uh, technical orders. You have to kind of like, you’re always following instructions. So the security stuff made, you know, it was like, just made logical sense to me. Uh, so, so I got that. Uh, and then we got towards like the end of the cohort and there, like that was when I joined the cohort, that was towards, well, it was November, 2020. So COVID, there was a lot of uncertainty. And then, uh, uh, even now there’s still kind of uncertainty with, uh, where you’re going to be located at, or if you can work in a virtual position or, and there was return to office, uh, discussion. So I was looking for an opportunity, uh, to stay remote or a virtual employee at the time, because coming out of the Air Force, um, I wanted, you know, my wife at the time to have an opportunity. If she wanted to control where we lived, like we didn’t really have a say. So she found a position in Texas. Um, so we, you know, we moved to Texas and I wasn’t sure from, from there, if, if I was going to be like, there wasn’t an opportunity for me in Texas at the time. Cause she, she, uh, had another opportunity, you know, back here in Las Vegas. So I thought, okay, what’s the best kind of career move right now to, to maintain, uh, being with AWS. Cause I really enjoy the culture and kind of what it stands for. The leadership principles and in the role and starting to really enjoy the tech, the tech role and kind of learning about the cloud. So I looked for an opportunity to stay virtual and, uh, ran across the position that, that I’m in right now. And I felt like my experience in the Air Force as a trainer, as you know, getting instructional design experience, um, qualified me to at least interview for the role. And, uh, long story short, did an internal, internal loop, uh, with AWS training and certification.

Manuel: So, so quick question. And I didn’t mean to cut you off, but so you did the internal loop. What was the difference in that? So for those that aren’t aware, like an internal loop, it’s, it’s another interview process, right? But now it’s, it’s an internal one. Was it similar to what you had done when you were coming in externally? Would, do you feel like, uh, obviously the roles are different, but was the process pretty similar?

Jason: I was, so I would say the process was very similar. Uh, I think with the external loop, uh, it’s typically, typically done with a hiring manager and maybe one to two other individuals. And, and there’s not a requirement for a bar raiser, uh, which is, you know, you’d have to be meet certain qualifications to be a bar raiser. It’s kind of like someone that oversees the full process. Well, internally, you’ve kind of already done, done that process and shown that you’ve met the high bar at Amazon. Uh, so that’s not really needed for an internal loop. Uh, so that was a little less stringent, uh, and then it was shorter. Uh, so I believe at the time it was still around the same length cause I met with, I interviewed with the hiring manager, which still had to, uh, discuss scenarios with the leadership principles and then also like job focus skills-based type questions. So other than the bar raiser that maybe it felt like there was a little less stress, I guess, cause I’m kind of already meeting the bar at Amazon, you know, so I felt like there’s more opportunity there and it wasn’t as much nerves to join the company. Uh, I don’t know. Did that answer the question?

Manuel: Yeah, no, it definitely did.

Jason: Okay. But so, uh, if I, if I go back to the, the end of the, in the cohort, I, maybe we’ll cut this out too. I, there’s part of me that, uh, that, uh, and I think maybe I expressed to you that, or maybe I did not, but, uh, that makes me question, I don’t know if it’s grass is greener kind of syndrome. Uh, but one of the pieces I didn’t really consider when I was, uh, taking this role that I’m currently in was the opportunity to work with customers. And I felt like as a solutions architect and I’ve seen, like I said, coming through with a cohort and seeing them out in the field and how they’re working with customers. And, uh, I feel like that’s one of the components that I didn’t consider. I wouldn’t really be working with customers. I am working with customers and our training is reaching, you know, thousands and millions of customers actually like across the globe. Uh, but you know, the customer’s way over there and I’m way over here behind the scenes that I don’t really get to interface with them. So I, I feel like that’s a piece that, that, uh, I miss that I think I would like if I would have stayed in the solutions architect role. And I didn’t really consider that at the time of taking, uh, the role, but again, at the time when I made the decision, I felt like I made the best decision with the information I had. So.

Manuel: Right. Yeah. And I know we’ve all had those where you’re like similar, right? Is the grass is greener on the other side and then you’re like, Oh, wait a minute. Maybe it’s not. And not that it’s not, but there’s certain aspects that maybe you’re missing or that you thought would be different. So I, I mean, I completely, I get it. I’ve had those similar types of experiences. So then I’m assuming as you kind of were looking for that other role, you didn’t really, so you didn’t do the full solutions architect position. This was almost like, Hey, I’m in here. And just because of having to move locations and wanting to stay virtual, that pushed you almost right away into doing your current role.

Jason: Yeah. So we got, so to go through the cohort, uh, you meet those certification benchmarks and you go through, uh, Tech U, which is a program, you know, AWS internal, which you, you, uh, learn more about AWS services and some more structured training. Um, and then at the end of that, you do a capstone, like you develop a capstone typically, uh, you develop a project, uh, uh, you showcasing AWS technologies that you’ve, you’ve learned and kind of at minimum lovable product, you would refer to it or a proof of concept with showcasing AWS technology. Uh, so I, I worked with my team. There were three of us, uh, to develop the capstone and I worked, worked with them all the way through developing the capstone, writing the paper. Uh, if you’re not familiar with, you’re familiar with it, but for listeners that are not familiar with Amazon, uh, uh, we’ll do a PRFAQ, which is a press release type simulation paper with frequently asked questions at the bottom. So you’ll, you’ll go through, give a little bit of history, purpose, the background of the, the product you’re, you’re launching and you treat it as like a press, uh, press release with some frequently asked questions. So we developed that paper and then developed the product, which was, uh, uh, this was something that stuck. So when we were thinking about using AWS technology, uh, we, you could do, you know, a lot, a lot of, a lot of, uh, things like that have been done in the past. You could, you could choose either like a simple project or maybe like a three tier web app, just a basic three tier web app to showcase technology. But we wanted to do something a little bit different. Uh, we did something with IOT, which had been done before, but the use case hadn’t been done. So, uh, I mentioned from Ohio and, you know, you experienced four seasons, not really extreme heat in the summer, but coming out here and it’s kind of a little bit sad, but, uh, um, I think, uh, we got here in October and that next summer I learned of, uh, a child that had been left in their car and passed away because it, because the extreme heat, so a parent accidentally left their child in the car, kind of out of their routine, went to work and then came back and like child had, had, uh, you know, succumbed to the heat. Uh, and that really like struck me. I’d never really seen, I even thought about that, especially in Ohio. I mean, I’m sure maybe it does happen in Ohio, but the extreme heat out here in the summer. Uh, and that kind of, you know, it stood out in my memory. So when we were thinking about a capstone that came back to me and I thought like, I wonder how many pets, how many, you know, like cases of, of pets and people are still like, it’s still happening. And then there was, there was still like, even the year prior, there were over 50, um, uh, kids that had been like, had lost their lives due to being left in a vehicle. So, uh, we kind of the solution to have a camera and then like the, for the minimum level product, you could use AWS recognition to identify that somebody is still in the vehicle. And then that would send an alert to the owner and you can kind of escalate that. Like if the owner didn’t respond and then like recognize and go back into the vehicle, then they would, uh, you know, you could send messages to other family members or even like the, the concept was you could send it to local authorities, map out the location where they’re at. And then, uh, we actually submitted a, uh, like a, like a patent for, for that through AWS intellectual property. It didn’t get picked up, but, but still, so, uh, but, but still that was, uh, that was the capstone activity where we came up with that solution, showcase data risk technologies. And it was really for, I felt like it, like a meaningful, uh, purpose. So that was kind of cool. So, but then, uh, probably about, I don’t know, maybe 20, 30 days before, uh, delivering the capstone presentation, I had the chance to, to join this team so that I got all the way up to the, and helped them formulate the, uh, the capstone and then transition to another team. So.

Manuel: And then now you, you had that role, you obviously got the position, you were able to move over based on your past experience. So now having gone through both, you know, the cohort and then now landing this role, what do you think that you picked up along the way in, you know, just your career over time that you’ve said, Hey, I can do this, right. I can transition into tech. Like obviously bits and pieces I’ve picked up are obviously your ability to study and have to learn and kind of keep yourself up to date. And, you know, if you want to do promotions, like you mentioned and going through that. So learning, picking up acronyms, you know, we’ve kind of talked about that, your presentation skills, but what other skills do you think you picked up that you think were relatable or able to transition over into, not even just the private sector, but into technology, like into your kind of role now?

Jason: Well, I think what’s kind of helped me succeed in this role is, um, in the military and, you know, some of those trainings, like you’re almost always working with other people in a team, communicating. I was in a lot of leadership roles where I had to learn how to effectively communicate in different styles and different backgrounds and cultures. And I think that’s helped me, uh, in my role now, because I mean, part of it, yeah, is controlled by me where I’m learning whatever topic where, I mean, there’s plenty of resources to learn, uh, almost everything that I’ve been able to develop. There’s plenty of resources to learn the technology, uh, even in AWS internally, but, uh, communicating with the different people on the team, like even my team internally of developers and with people with different backgrounds, like knowing how to get the information, uh, from a subject matter expert, like coming up with different examples of what to put into like real world customer examples and how, just how to communicate effectively with, uh, maybe I’m not doing such a good job right now, but, uh, like how to communicate with different team members, because you’re almost always working with an outside source, a subject matter expert, a technical curriculum architect, which kind of helps guide the development of the course, uh, product managers, program managers, uh, instructional design. Like it’s never, it’s never, you’re not just in a silo working by yourself. Uh, so I think that’s going to help me, uh, succeed in the role that I’m in right now, because it’s not just about me sitting and writing material. It’s about collaborating with all these other people to get the best product for the customer. Uh, but it’s also part, I want to say what’s kind of helped me stay in this role is fake it till you make it because from the start of the cohort, like I’d had no idea. Like, I mean, I say fake it, like I’m not trying to fool anybody, but there’s something said about, said about being kind of uncomfortable, you know, and almost never feeling like, I almost live in this constant state of imposter syndrome. Like I almost like have to kind of prove myself, prove to myself. And I feel like others that, Hey, I can do the role and kind of belong here. So it’s not like, it’s not like you’re trying to deceive people, but it’s more about like, okay, slowly getting the confidence. And, and one of the, one of the things that stood out to me with, uh, coming through the cohort, we got a chance to, to talk to some solutions architects that were in the role. There’s a senior solutions architect, very intelligent and, uh, um, had worked with, you know, hundreds of customers and very experienced, but he said, get comfortable with being uncomfortable. And I’ve heard that a few times, like from other, in other places, but that was probably the first time I heard it, especially, uh, about this role or a solutions architect or even technology, because it said, if you’re, if you’re comfortable, you’re probably not where you should be because there’s so much, so many new services, features, if you’re just kind of comfortable in the, in the role, you might be missing something, you know what I mean? And there’s always something to learn. So, I’ve kind of taken that on as a, as a, I don’t want to say a mantra, but kind of, I’ve just, that just really stood out to me.

Manuel: And I agree, especially like in, in technology roles, right? Like if you’re comfortable, then, then you’re not growing, you’re not learning, you’re missing opportunities, opportunities either within that role or other roles. Um, and just trying to, you know, trying to get yourself comfortable there. And I, I mentioned in with another guest where I’ve, I’ve started to try to find different things, like not even just within my role, but just to push myself in general, right? Like just presentations. One of the things that I try to do is when I’m communicating or, you know, like in larger environments. So one of the things I brought about is just posture and standing. So, you know, by just repetition, like most people cross their arms a certain way. So I got in the habit of crossing them in the opposite direction. Like I would stand somewhere and do it. And like, you would start to feel like people could, people could tell that I’m doing this and it feels weird. And eventually I got to the point where now, sometimes I don’t remember which way I actually crossed them. And then it got to, okay, can I stand and just have my hands by my side and just, you know, just different things because, you know, you always, I always had my hands in my pockets or you’re always standing and doing something and you’re just like, how do I, is this weird? Is this not like, how do I position myself? And now you’re at, I’m at the point where like, it doesn’t bother me. Right. Because again, that’s a skill I wanted to grow, but within technology, like if I’m in a room where similar to you, I’ve been with other senior solution architects and people that just really know their stuff. And I’m like, oh my God, like I, I kind of understand. And I’ve been doing this for, you know, 20 something years, but still pushing myself to say, okay, I don’t know everything. I know I’m not going to know everything. And not that, I don’t know if it’s a fake it till you make it, but I feel like I’ve now have the confidence that I can figure it out. I don’t know it now might take me, you know, maybe the person that knows it, they picked it up in two weeks. It might take me two months, but I’ll get there. So, you know, kind of to your point is starting to get comfortable, especially in technology roles, because things change so much, they evolve and just, you know, you might find a different role and just, that’s something that I think people need to kind of be comfortable with doing, or if not, then you can be fine where you’re at and just know that when opportunities pass you by, that’s one of the reasons.

Jason: Yeah. Yeah. One thing, so I want to go back to one of the things I felt like has helped me succeed or at least stay in this role is not being afraid to ask questions that might sound dumb. You know what I mean? Like I’m not afraid to look dumb in a meeting. And it, I feel like when I first joined the role it was almost like I had a, like a free pass to ask dumb questions because I didn’t have, you know, the experience, but I’ve kind of kept that. Like, I’m not afraid to ask, even if I feel like I should know this already, if I’m going to, if I’m going to call with, like, I’ve been on calls with people that are published authors and they’re like faces of certain AWS technologies. And I’ll ask them some of the most basic questions just to make sure I understand it. Cause in the end, I had to translate that to, you know, I have to, to, to write the, either the story, the lesson, the topic, and I have to translate that to a learner that might not have, you know, this certain level of knowledge. So I want to make sure I know it. And part of that is sometimes asking what might seem like a dumb question, but I’ve, I’ve given myself the freedom to, to do that. And not if I feel like if I’m having that question, somebody else on the call might have that question and not, not might not want to ask it. So I feel like sometimes in meetings, like I’m the constant question person, but that helps me one to understand it. And I think that collectively helps when you’re in the meeting too, because people learn from that discussion and kind of back and forth as well, so.

Manuel: Right. And then I think it also, hopefully I would hope that it gives other people the confidence to be able to ask a similar question because I had somebody else that said the same thing. And this is a person that knows quite a lot. And they’ve mentioned that in meetings, they would go through and ask a question. And somebody else was like, oh man, I, you know, I can’t believe you asked that question. They’re like, well, did you know it? Well, no. He’s like, well, I don’t care if it makes me look like I’m asking the dumb question. He’s like, but now I have that knowledge and I can pass it on. And you start to kind of foster that type of environment of that culture where like, oh, anybody can ask a question because, you know, Jason’s not going to look at me like, how do you not know?

Jason: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like, I said, I feel like I’ve tried to keep that type of mentality. Like I, like part of that could be the constant imposter syndrome. Like I never feel like I’m good enough. So I could never judge anybody for what questions they’re asking. You know what I mean? But, uh, I think that’s, it creates an atmosphere of like, like a safe space, like that you can, you can ask those kinds of questions that we’re all here for, you know, to, to learn from each other and, and to give the, in the end, the best product for the customer. So yeah, if it’s in a safe space and you can communicate and collaborate, then you usually have a better product in the end.

Manuel: So is there anything? So as we’re kind of wrapping up here, is there anything that I haven’t asked you that maybe you think that I should have, or just anything that, you know, kind of looking back now in your career and having this conversation that you’re like, Hey, we didn’t touch on this or, Hey, here’s something that I think would be valuable. Or, you know, at least in your experience that, Hey, I had this, you know, and it helped me, you know, that you want to share.

Jason: Uh, I would say, so if I go back to taking this role, you know, one of the things I felt like kind of looking back as the grass is greener and seeing other people on the role, but I wouldn’t say this, it was a, it was a factor, but it wasn’t the determining factor of me taking this role. So, uh, at the time when I, when I joined, uh, the org, there was different leadership. And the, the one, the one manager that I, that I interviewed with, um, I almost felt, I don’t want to end on a negative note here, but it’s, it, it, I’d like to pass on the lesson is, uh, one of the factors was progressing and promotion. So if you’re, if you’ve been at, at Amazon, uh, for any period of time that the promotion process is, I would say it’s rigorous. Like you have to meet, you, let’s say like, I’m a, I came in at an L4 as that’s a level four. So to, to be an L5, you have to already be performing at that level and kind of show, show continuous experience and continuous progression at that level to even be considered. And there’s, you know, there’s other things that go into that. Uh, but one of the factors, as I was told by that manager that basically within six months I could be promoted. So basically like a fast track to L5 when at the time I didn’t really understand or know if that was even possible. I just kind of took that person at their word. And I thought I have a chance because there was quite a big pay disparity and you got like, as you, as you’re considering roles, you want to, one, the virtual was the most important thing to me. So the pay disparity was not, that was not the determining factor. Uh, but there was a potential if I was promoted to catch up with my peers in the cohort. So I thought, okay, I have ease because I’m going to be in a virtual position. And I know that I’m not really going to be behind my peers, uh, and financially we’re going to be okay. You know, I can take care of my family. I’m going to be able to progress and kind of meet some of the life goals. Uh, but as it turns out, I met the benchmarks that what they asked for, I feel like, uh, and with the feedback I was given, I was told I was meeting those benchmarks. And then that person exited the company and the promotion never came to fruition. So it’s like this one determining factor of, uh, me taking the role. And I think maybe that led to a little bit to the grass is greener and made me question like, was this the best move and looking at my peers? Uh, but overall, uh, I mean, it’s not good to look in the rear view and try to make decisions, you know, hindsight is 20-20. Like, oh, if I could go back, I would make this decision. But at the time I took everything into consideration. And even with the pay disparity, I felt like I was making the right decision. So that’s kind of what I had to go back to. But when that person, like I did leave a little bit of a bad taste in my mouth, you know, I felt like I, I went from, you know, making this much potentially and being with my peers to this other side. But I really felt, I felt, uh, I don’t know if deceived is too hard of a word, but I, I, I don’t know. I felt kind of betrayed or deceived by that person that, that told me this was, this, this would happen. And then they left the company. So, so that was a, an experience that I would say, if I learned anything from it, I mean, you can’t control what happens in the future, but at the time you’re making the decision, lay out everything, kind of understanding what your priorities were. And virtual was my priority. So the pay gap was fine with me. So that, that was a lesson I took away from that was to have confidence in the decisions you made at the time. Cause you, as long as you take in all the information, you know.

Manuel: I guess I’ll add to that that is also, like you said, hindsight is 20-20, like, Oh, I should have made a different decision. It’s not that, but just learning from that experience and saying, okay, Hey, the next time I go in, I’m going to go through. And now I know maybe, maybe additional questions to ask to get additional information, right. And say, Hey, okay, what is this process? Like you’re telling me this, but what’s that process like, right? Maybe just getting additional details and say, okay, Hey, it’s a six month long process. Like you should be able to get them. Um, you should be able to perform at that level in six months. But once you’re performing, it might take another six months to get promoted, you know, but not knowing you don’t know to ask those questions. But I think now for the next time, not even just here, but just other places, what’s that promotion process look like? What do I need to do? How would I be evaluated? What’s the timeframe, right? Things that I’ve learned over time, each time I negotiate or I go into the other one, you learn the right questions they ask. And it’s, it’s surprising that you go through and, you know, I’ve, I’ve bounced around quite a bit. So I had that experience. I’ve picked up a lot of those things. And then you go through and I’ve had recruiters. That’s a good question. I don’t know. Let me find out. Same thing with hiring managers. Well, nobody’s ever asked that. Oh, either they’ve never had the bad experience that I did, or, you know, they didn’t talk to somebody else like, Oh, Jason had that. Well, now next time I go through, I’m going to ask those questions, you know, just because again, the more, I think the more information you have, you might’ve still made the same decision, you know, at the end of the day, but I don’t think you would probably kind of go back and feel like deceived or disillusioned or whatever it is. Right. Like you’d be like, eh, okay. Like maybe I’m now at this point, maybe you’re like 30%, like, ah, like I wish I would have known. Maybe it’s only 10% and you’re like, eh, it sucks. I wish I would have known, but you know, you kind of move on.

Jason: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Even going back, I think I still would have, I would have made the same decision, but I would have had it, you know, if I could go back now, I would understand the questions that I need to ask. And I would go into it with a different mindset and then not like, if it didn’t happen within six months, it’s because now I have a better understanding of the process. Like you said, you, you know, what kind of questions to ask because it’s from that experience.

Manuel: So, uh, anything else that you want to share? Is that the kind of, um, I think you’ve shared a lot of good info and it’s interesting to kind of see kind of where you started to how you’ve got in. And I know you’re early on in your tech career, but that was also one of the determining factors in bringing you in. Right. It’s just, I don’t, I don’t want to just bring people like myself who’ve been in the industry forever. Right. And you’ve started relatively new. So, I mean, the process is different, the technology is different. So just kind of getting different viewpoints and different experiences, right? Like, Hey, if you’ve been in the military for 15, 20 years, depending on what you did there can translate to, you know, a tech role or a non-tech role, right? It doesn’t have to be in technology, but you know, there’s, it’s what you make of it and how you learn from, you know, the different experiences along the way.

Jason: Yeah. I would say, I mean, it’s imparting. I would say just don’t be afraid to take a chance on yourself because I mean, just like I said, I could have leaned back on, on my Air Force experience or a jet engine mechanic and taken, taken that route that I didn’t mention, but I ended up getting my airframe of power plant certification just as a fallback, but I never want to use it. Just FYI. But yeah, don’t be afraid to take a risk, take a chance on yourself because as long as you’re willing to learn and put the effort in, I think you can do about anything.

Manuel: Well, I appreciate you coming on and sharing your experience. And, you know, at some point, once you’ve, you know, continued on in your career and, you know, as I continue to do this, I’d love to bring you back and say, okay, here’s where Jason was, you know, at the beginning of 2025. Now it’s, you know, maybe it’s six months, maybe it’s a year from now at some point and just kind of bring you back on and say, Hey, now look at everything I’ve done or here’s so much more that I’ve learned along the way.

Jason: Yeah. Yeah. It’d be great. It’s been an honor. Yeah. I hope, uh, hope in another six months or so, or yeah, next time it’ll be, who knows where I’ll be. As long as I’m not working on jet engines.

Manuel: Looking forward to it. I appreciate it.

Jason: Yeah. Thank you.